A Conversation With the President of Wangki Twi Tasba Raya

So we, as territorial government, right now we are working hard in coordination with all the institutions here in the municipality, at a regional level also with the regional government, and also with the central government because various laws that support us, that back us up.

The Law 445 talks about.... where it talks about the right of the indigenous peoples to administer and so forth. And so, based on the law that protects us, we are acting to keep to a minimum the situation that has taken place. And so far we feel that we have, we've stopped the invasion that was taking place... we have stopped it... because by applying that law, we can get people imprisoned via a judicial process. We get them imprisoned and they end up with three-year prison terms.

And that is how we are trying to calm the situation. And later on we seek to reach a peaceful solution, without confrontations or anything else. Territorial rights here in Nicaragua is something new for us. For indigenous peoples it is something new. But what the current government has done for us is a very good thing. Because before, we did not have this right. Now with the new law that is Law 445 where we are protected, that law supports us. It protects us. And the authorities set to work to make the territorial divisions until there came a time... the work had to go through various phases and right now we are in the last phase which is remediation.

So that is when we get to the problem where the land dealings have taken place. Then there comes when they get paralyzed, they get frozen. And right now we are in that stage of remediation. Just three weeks ago we had a meeting with the regional government, with all the territorial presidents on the matter that soon... we are going to work on the remediation issue. What's meant by the remediation issue? Some are trying to manipulate people so that they get involved in confrontations with those who are invading land. They think that remediation is something that has to involve confrontation with those invading the land.

- That's what they call....

 That's what they seek... and we are not on that path.

-And they call that self-remediation?

That's it. That's what they call it. That's what they call it, self-remediation. But we as a territorial government are working along other routes, along legal routes. And we are coordinating to define boundaries, because the concrete trig points are already there, the territorial trig points, each territory already has its trig points, its coordinates. The technology is advanced enough for us to see from here where they are located. And we are already planning to start work on clearing the boundary limits and with that we will know where we are, to where we will know where each community is in which zone, the boundary limits for each territory and so on.

So we are, as I have said, we're in the last phase of the remediation, which is clearing the boundaries, the inter-territorial limits and so on. So we are at that stage right now. I remember very well indeed that in 2015 there were clashes between Miskitos and those who were invading the land. But that came about thanks to the same situation that has been... occurring. The political opposition is insisting on self-remediation. So the people in the communities rise, get involved in confrontations, and then they persist, and that's how, I think there have been four or three deaths, something like that.

- There is a famous photo of a girl...

Indeed. It's the case of a girl where a 13-year-old boy was handling his father's handgun inside the house. The gun went off, and the bullet pierced through here and came out here. What did they do when that accident happened? The creators of fake news took charge of spreading the word through the media, through Facebook, claiming that a lot of men appeared, 200 men and attacked the community. And we showed that was completely untrue. We went to the house and to the community.

We interviewed people. We even visited the site where it happened. Everything was false. But that information spread internationally as if it was something real, which is untrue. Today even we could go... if we go to the community, we can talk also to the mother of the girl about what happened and she can tell us the truth. So these are situations they are manipulating. We have to work hard practically every day to prove the truth about all the false information that they are reporting. And we seek to show the truth because we don't go around lying to people.

- And, in your opinion, do you think this problem is getting better, is being resolved, even if only gradually?

Lejan: Yes, indeed. What I've seen during this year 2020, after 11 months now... in these 11 months, we have seen that the situation is improving. And people in the community also feel a little more secure, not like before, because since we began going through the judicial process with the people we sometimes get hold of, then they see that there is pressure via the legal route.

So those people doing the invasions there, they are also withdrawing, practically retreating from the land. And the people, on seeing that, we note they feel safer more or less... safer than they were.... And right now we are working along those lines. This year is already ending, finishing. And next year, if we continue along the same line, we think we may feel that the situation, the tension that exists, will decrease more and more until we reach a definitive solution. There are two more points.

We, as a territory, on June 10 this year, we called a meeting in the Tea Keamp community. We were representatives of institutions, for example, mainly from the local court. There were two... the municipal judge and then the public defender as well. There were two from here. And the police accompanied us and others. To the Tea Keamp community, we invited other communities that are part of the territory, the ones closest, for them also see the meeting's importance. We invited community leaders. We even invited other territory leaders, that is Amasau, the other territory that is adjacent. So we invited them there, and we sat down to talk and the people invading also, I would say that there were about 28 people who came from there.

But from that time until... since 2015, that happened in 2015 in September. From that time until now, the situation... although there are rumors, although rumors spread scaring people in the area so that a false report results and then gets taken to the Inter-American Court. These are the things that have been happening, but for now there's a situation of calm, there are no confrontations or anything. But I remember very well that last year, in February in the community of Santa Clara, there was a domestic accident inside a house.

- "Conflict beef"

It is totally false. For her, I don't know what her aim is in spreading so many lies. Because it's something that's not... it has nothing to do with anything, anything real, nothing at all. These are things that are not right. I mean, a lie of such magnitude.

- Compañero, could you explain a little about, for example, this historical problem of the Yatama ex-combatants development pole? I understand that it's located very close to some communities of your territorial government. Can you tell us a bit about that?

 Yes. That is in Tasba Raya zone. The northern zone... Tasba Raya has two zones. The north zone and south zone. So, if you go into the northern zone, you enter through the first community which is Miguel Bikan, which is in the plain. And then you continue 10 kilometers further down, and then you enter the community of Capri. From Capri, two-and-a-half kilometers away is another community called Polo Lakia Sirpe. Yes, I mean there's people, a town is there. And then further down to the southwest is Polo La Quietara. That's where the ex-combatants' land is that was granted to them, where it is located. That's where they are. So, the whole area that includes... if you go further down, you will find the southern area of Tasba Raya, and the last community there is called Wisconsin. So you almost abuts onto the communal land of Wisconsin. that's where it is.

So all that strip, all that strip, is covered by the Polo La Quietara zone. So that's where, as I told you before, that's where the owners of the land are trying to sell, that's where they are trying to sell their land. Some, not all, some. They want to do a transaction, put it for sale, or whatever. So that's where the problem is occurring.

- So the remediation process, with the right remediation process, you hope to solve that historical problem as well?

We hope so. That is the hope we have, yes. After the completion of the boundaries inter-territorial limits, because up to now, as we can see... while the trig points have been set, the boundary setting has yet to be done. So the problem is there. And that is why we want to start from there.

-Can you explain what boundary setting means?

Lejan: Ok, perfectly. For example, one country with another country divides, splits. For example Spain with France. It has its territorial borders. Exactly the same. The territory of Wangki Twi borders with another territory, Li Aubra, which is a little above the Río Coco. So, the territory of Wangki Twi runs, everything is referred to the border from the Río Coco inwards, it borders with the Li Aubra territory. So the trig points, when they made the territorial division, the territorial divisions, they set the trig points.

- The trig points are the reference points?

Landmarks. Coordination points that they have set out. Yes, inter-territorial. So the trig points are there. So, right now what is needed we are in the last phase of remediation, is just that. To do the remediation clearing the path from one trig point to another so that it is visible and so that everyone knows where they are located. That is what I mean. When I say boundary limit, that is what I mean.

* Lottie Cunningham of the Legal Center for Human Rights in the Northern Caribbean Region (CEJUDHCAN)